I know I'm new here, but I wanted to say thank you to the people in this thread for an interesting conversation. Whether you agree with people or not, people in this thread have tried to make interesting points and speak their minds. It's rare that I see people online in any forum able to vigorously disagree with each other without resorting to pure ad hominem, and I just wanted to thank all of you for that.

Lorenius, especially thanks for your academic discussion of Pope Francis I. I wasn't aware of a number of those facts, so I'm very grateful.

Personally, while I'm going to remain frustrated with religion in general, having been raised Southern Baptist and seeing things that make me so angry in most religions... I see this as a good sign. I know that 'toleration' changing to 'respect' may seem minor in the face of the rest of it, but I'm often happy with changes in entrenched systems, especially one as entrenched as the office of the Pope.

I'm not holding my breath that there will be a reversal of doctrine, but if Pope Francis I can even allow for a change of tone from persecution to respect, I think it's a stepping stone to greater things.

*takes off "mentally-superior"/academic hat*

I'm really just a guy who was raised in a single wide trailer in rural Florida who loved to read. I couldn't go the direction of most kids, who could be popular and say all the right things. I only had my mind to defend me from the cruelty heaped on me by the kids my age. I discovered science-fiction, fantasy, and gaming. I started acting in high school.

By the time I was 12 I knew I was gay...I didn't know that word back then, so I thought of myself as "queer." It was terrifying, I couldn't run away from the kids, so I ran even more deeply into books. By the time I was 17 I had rejected Catholocism as my faith system and all of my attempts to hide my sexuality had been fruitless (at least by the high school faculty, who I discovered later, knew it all along)

I "ran" away from home at 17 into the arms of the military, this was the first of many mistakes I made trying to find my way in the wider world. I took a lover while I was in service. It was a miracle we weren't caught since we had sex in the enlisted dorms. I took an honorable discharge and early out when offered at three years. Skip forward two years to I was 22. I came out and I ran off and started making a career in the theater. It was the first time I was truly comfortable anywhere. I was finally surrounded by people that were like me. This was the middle 1980s. I had friends dying all around me from AIDS. Those were pretty grim days. I won't go into great detail about those times...maybe someday. Just imagine the horror of coming out and watching other gay guys dying around you.

Skip forward to 2007. I lost my grandmother and grandfather, the only people I ever really cared about in my family. Over the previous years I had a reasonable amount of lovers, but never anyone permanent. I had driven equal amounts of energy into my career and volunteering at LGBT centers. Losing my folks crushed me...and forced me to reassess my life. I wanted to do something meaningful for the gay community at large. After burying them both I took off to Europe alone for 40 days, I told my agent to leave me alone. When I came back I knew I had a talent for history that I had only used sparingly. When I got into university, I and others discovered I had a talent for academia. Not a wild sexy sort of moment for me.

The fact is I was never a terribly outgoing guy. I have been given a certain amount of good looks that I kept through not smoking and going to the gym, I was always too shy in private to take a vast amount of lovers. Plus I am downright picky now, when I fall for a guy it is genuine and that person had to have set off a some sort of bomb to get my attention...and for it to last that guy has to be intelligent and make me laugh...cry...ahh, hell, he has to matter.

In the present my sheer cussedness, my hard work has gotten me into a PhD program. I know I can seem like a walking dictionary, but most of that is armor. My Catholicism is long behind me, but as other folks raised Roman Catholic can attest to, you never quite get it out of your system.

I suppose I am Bashir in some senses. Shy, awkward (or at least I feel that way), and loyal unto to death to my friends and those I care about.

That's me...in the overview.

~J

Ladies and Gentlemen it’s time to get on the Boat!

Phase one is complete and the votes are in, we will be on the December 2nd cruise to the Bahamas!



We have come to a point where commitment is involved and we need to know numbers.

Rate for an inside cabin will be $600.14 double occupancy that’s $300.07 per person, 3rd and 4th person in a cabin rates can be given as needed all rates include taxes

Rates for different cabins are included in the attached PDF
Please read below for the next requirements to secure your spot on board:

Phase 2:
A deposit of $100.00 along with the First and Last names of each person in a cabin, as they appear on your passport or driver’s license.

If you don’t already have a passport please visit http://travel.state.gov/passport/passport_1738.html

We need 8 cabins to get the group rate this would give us an even lower rate.

Balance will be due September 6th

Our Contact will be my close friend and co-worker Bonnie Jordon:
Group Booking # - 2333628
Bonnie Jordan
Group Cruise Coordinator
International Cruise & Excursion, Inc. (I.C.E.)
1-888-320-4234 ex. 4255
bonnie.jordan@ourvacationcenter.com

We will be hosting a one hour cocktail reception included on board as a Bon Voyage Party. I am looking into securing space for another gathering to discuss or play as we want to have at least one unique special activity

Attached is a PDF of additional details to review.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rp5i6q1jfjnhrcc/STO%20Group%20Cruise.pdf

Quote by Jacien

Quote by Lorenius

LOL. In point of fact, yes I do, Robbie. But who would be Bashir?

~J

Indeed I wonder... Who would be cast as the mentally superior product of morally dubious science know-it-all who always comes off as being kind of annoying? :P

I'm sorry Jeff, I think it might be you. :laugh:

I know Sej wouldn't mind playing a Vorta. ;)

So what that leaves the Prophet for me? Sniff

Quote by Lorenius

LOL. In point of fact, yes I do, Robbie. But who would be Bashir?

~J

Indeed I wonder... Who would be cast as the mentally superior product of morally dubious science know-it-all who always comes off as being kind of annoying? :P

I'm sorry Jeff, I think it might be you. :laugh:

I know Sej wouldn't mind playing a Vorta. ;)

... No comment.

Other than that... uhh "wow" will have to do. lol

LOL. In point of fact, yes I do, Robbie. But who would be Bashir?

~J

We all realize that this discussion could be a Very Special Episode of DS9 involving Dr. Bashir, a Vorta, and a Bajoran, with a worm-hole alien peeking around the corner and winking at the end, right? :)

Robbie,

Then with all due respect confront the ignorance and bigotry with the best weapon you have, your mind. I am a historian, my work to make people aware of the heavily bowdlerized history presented by the Magisterium helps everyone whether they believe or not.

I am not equating my experience with yours, but I too was made to feel "othered" by the Church, it is why I am no longer a member of the Roman Catholic Church, or frankly, any other organized religion. There is a difference between spirituality and (organized) religion. One does not need a building or a group of old white men to feel a connection to something higher than yourself (be it God or Gaia or something else).

Your mileage may vary, but I choose to simply live the best life I know how to live. Be good to people, love my friends, and be the best man I can be for the man I love. Sometimes I mess up, but that is because I am human, not because I am malicious.

My passion for history stems from the belief that I can help people throw off the chains of wilfull ignorance and use knowledge to expose dishonest brokers of false facts for the charlatans that they are, and when it comes to false facts, there are no greater masters of creating false facts than the purveyors of organized religion...or politicians... and the reason it works is because...people need to believe in something greater than themselves. Charlatans of all stripe have been taking advantage of that key weakness for a very long time.

I know its raw and I know it hurts..and I did not intend for this topic to cause you distress...but know I do not endorse the Church or those who choose to be hurtful to other human beings, but they are a particular problem that needs to be studied.

~J

MOD: To akin Christianity to a plague, saying anyone who believes in a god is indoctrinated, and painting every Christian as a hate monger is not being respectful. I'm not going to debate what should or shouldn't be respected. This is a second warning. Keep this conversation polite and respectful or the thread will be closed.

Robbie I do apologize if I've offended you. I do not appreciate the attitude in which you have made your position known and nor do I appreciate what in my view is a very intellectualized view of bullying. I don't care how factual you may feel it is, to single out people like Lorenius or myself having a religious background and calling them brainwashed products of our environment is really just plain mean. I know you've had terrible experiences, you've told me about them and I'm sorry they happened to you. And there is plenty of factual evidence to support your claims but please keep in mind that this is a safe place for everyone and the more vitriol you pour into your well-though-out words, the more you might be alienating certain members of our community, and this just isn't the place for that. Once again I apologize to you Robbie, I like you very much. :)

That was awesome, great voice. :cheer:

Quote by Jacien

It's offensive and judgmental and resoundingly hypocritical to employ the same prejudiced, bigoted and adversarial modus operandi that our detractors feel just as justified using against us in the name of their own personal or collective beliefs.

Yeah, Jacien. It's the exact same thing: I chased Christians down the street with a baseball bat as had happened to me. I threw eggs and bottles at Christians from passing cars as repeatedly happened to me when I lived in West Hollywood. I went on a decades-long PR blitz equating them to child molesters. I campaigned and made it illegal for Christians to serve in the military, adopt children, and get married. And then I made sure to change the constitutions in states all over the country to ENSURE Christians would never get the chance to get married. I bought television networks, book stores, newspapers, and a whole host of other media to heap lie after lie about Christians and drive Christian teen suicides to a rate that is 7 times higher than non-Christians.

I did all of those hypocritical things. But only in your False Equivalence fallacy fantasy.

The truth of the matter is, everything I posted was factually correct. (Okay, except for calling the pope a piece of shit, but only because he's not *literally* a piece of shit.) It may be upsetting to you to confront your cognitive dissonance, but it is a real phenomenon and accepted by every major psychological association in the world. Children are born atheists but are indoctrinated into believing in gods. That is an indisputable fact. Children retain the religion of their parents to a number that nears 100%. That is an indisputable fact. Your religion is an accident of your birth. Had you been born in Saudi Arabia, you would most likely be Muslim with the same level of defensive belief.

Pointing out *why* people still believe in the ancient Middle Eastern gods is not employing "the same prejudiced, bigoted and adversarial modus operandi" that Christians use to vilify gay people. I am quoting actual scientifically determined facts. Christians are quoting ancient texts that were written hundreds of years after the very people they talk about had died.

I am not a bigot as you claim. I am confronting the horrible things Christians have done. Speaking out against atrocities IS NOT THE SAME THING as committing the atrocities in the first place. And I never personally attacked anyone on this board as you have done to me. So who is the real hypocrite?

Stonewall is meant to be a safe and inclusive environment for all it's members. No one should ever be made to feel that they cannot voice their own personal or religious views for fear of them being attacked or. Consider the wording of any critique and moderate your passion with reason, empathy and above all respect. If your goal is to enlighten and not just bask in secular righteousness please Keep in mind you may be shooting your own objective in the foot my making others feel like you don't really understand them. No one is going to listen on a personal level to someone whom they think does not get them. People don't like to be made to feel deficient or be called brainwashed for believing in something. It's offensive and judgmental and resoundingly hypocritical to employ the same prejudiced, bigoted and adversarial modus operandi that our detractors feel just as justified using against us in the name of their own personal or collective beliefs. Not everyone feels comfortable toeing the party line or being firmly on one side of a very polarized issue. They should not be made to feel alienated or afraid that the simple beliefs that they feel make them a better person are going to be subject to a savage deconstruction.

Flawed in practice though it may be, the cardinal tenets of Christianity are kindness, love and compassion, even for your enemies. The fact that these tenets have been warped or flat-out disregarded by the people that make up the congregations and their leadership is the fault of the people and the leadership, not the words themselves and IMHO, nor even the Deity that is believed to have inspired them. I'm not Catholic I was raised in a non-denominational church who's doctrine is closest to that of the Baptists. And while their practiced doctrine did make it a bit more difficult for me to come to terms with my own sexuality it also did teach me some very important lessons and continues to inspire me to treat others with kindness, compassion and respect. It inspires me to examine my own actions and my own motives in a very harsh mirror in order to better myself. Religions change and with them their doctrines but this process takes time and patience. Corruption will always be present in any human endeavor whether it be political, social or spiritual. I don't think religion and by extension the Catholic church is obsolete, just in need of an upgrade. They're just realizing that they've still been in closed beta while the rest of us are already playing the expansion. ;)

Understanding and compassion are key, but I don't see such things anywhere near the Vatican. And I will not sit idly while lies are spread about who I am as a person.

I am sorry, but his words are ludicrous. If marginalizing a group of people in the world isn't contrary to the message of compassion that the Church has insisted on for eons, then I am truly lost at what the definition of hypocrisy is.

I respect what people believe in, but to a point. Respect is universal, and without it I see very little (if any) validation in the beliefs of one or many.

S-

I want everyone to bear in mind that my personal and private position on the Chruch is not too far from Robbie's. There is a degree of moral bankruptcy to the RC Church's position. What organization do you know of that is comprised of somewhere north of 30% gay men treats their kind more shabbily than this Church?

But I am not allowed the luxury of my personal opinion when I speak "wearing my academic hat."

Francis is somewhat doctrinally left of Ratzinger, who is a doctrinal and theological conservative and ran the Inquisition arm of the Church under John Paul II (SCDF). Francis has been, most of his career as a priest, a pastor. A social progressive of the family. But still does not believe in equal marriage rights for gay and lesbian couples. Why? Because the Church teaches Thomism and natural law as part of theological career training for the vocation of the priesthood. Yet, this man who just got elected, despite his anti-marriage position has called for, in public, respect for gays and lesbians. This is something that Benedict would never do, despite the rather unusual and borderline homoerotic relationship he shares with his papal secretary, Father Georg Ganswein.

If anyone is interested, in any degree, to the tortured past and future the Roman Church has about nonconforming sexuality, I recommend Mark D. Jordan, who explains in great detail how the church created the current definition of "sodomite" and "sodomy" out of whole cloth (The Invention of Sodomy in Christian Theology). He is one of the most learned of gay scholars on the Church, and not incidentally potentially one of my PhD committee members.

I study this part of history because I believe the key to certain modern problems lie there, I happen to have the Roman Catholic background, so to some extent I understand the guilt and grave doubts that gay members of the Catholic faith go through, having gone through it myself. I can't just dismiss it out of hand.

...and for the record I am not offended in the least about what Robbie has posted here. It is a valid opinion expressed with passion. I ask for nothing more than that. I started this conversation knowing that it would evoke a strong emotional response, so I bear responsibility for this topic. But we (referring to all gays and lesbians, inclusive of those of faith) need to be informed and understand just why we are where we are today in relationship to faith and our sexual orientation.

Boswell was a believer and one of the finest gay historians of his age. I am one of his successors who is secular with a religious past. There are questions JEB left behind that demand answers for all our sakes. So no matter how I live my life, my research puts me in this uncomfortable place. More help from you all would be appreciated.

~J

Chapter VII: Dreamt My Own Being

The preprogrammed lights-out in the detention suite had done little to draw Semil to a restful sleep. He lay motionless in his bunk, his eyes open in the dark.

They know. Of course they know. They must know.

The Founders the Founders the Founders. All and each and every one of them know I’ve failed them. No way to hide it. They know.

I can’t go back. Mustn’t go back. They’ll never have me back. Because they know.

I can’t – they shouldn’t – they wouldn’t. They know so they won’t take me.

The names. They don't have names. The Link doesn't require them to have names. For us that need no names, other than Founder - other than the Hundred. They don't need names. But some of them have names. The ones that were cast away earned themselves names.

We have names. They give us names because we are Solid and we do their bidding, and we need names to interact with other Solids.

Where are all these thoughts coming from? What have they been doing to me? I can't remember. There are only some vague, blurry -- no...

Are they dreams? Is this real? Is this a dream? Is this a nightmare? Can I wake up from it?

If I sleep, will that wake me up? If I die, will that? What if this isn't a dream? If this is real, then I just die.

Maybe it's a dream, and dying here will kill me. Dying kills me. Dying will kill me.

Have I dreamt this all? Have I dreamt my own being? How far back does the dream go?

If this is a nightmare, then what happened to me before? Why is this all taking place here?

Semil rolled in his bunk roughly, almost off the edge of the small, hard pad. His face peering over the edge, was when he saw the dull matte of brushed metal.

The slight peek of a mek'leth handle, hiding beneath his bunk.

Lolz XD

Love this!

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

Thanks George Takei for sharing this wonderful vid on FB :)