Re: A Rant About Rank
As I was working out today, I spent the time catching up on my STO podcasts (in particular Priority One).
Good choice ;)
CapnBranFlakes
Good choice ;)
Re: A Rant About Rank
I would love to see the ranks system redesigned. There are dozens of problems with it including how quickly we level and what the ranks are. [Not to mention how confusing it can be to spend your skills points.]
When they were designing the game they said countless times "we're going to do something different the with leveling mechanic than what you've seen" which excited a lot of people, but in the end, we got the same leveling mechanic as everywhere else.
I prefer EVE Online's system as opposed to STO's where you generally just have one character that you can do everything with. I've spent three years in EVE with just one character. I think it'd be much more immersive if I just had one character that I spent much longer working my way up to Admiral.
I think reaching the rank of Admiral should be somewhat separate from getting commander or captain, possibly based on meritorious actions instead of just XP.
Of course, to be really cannon appropriate, we'd have to start out serving on a ship, instead of running it and that's something that's just never gonna happen, sadly.
When they were designing the game they said countless times "we're going to do something different the with leveling mechanic than what you've seen" which excited a lot of people, but in the end, we got the same leveling mechanic as everywhere else.
I prefer EVE Online's system as opposed to STO's where you generally just have one character that you can do everything with. I've spent three years in EVE with just one character. I think it'd be much more immersive if I just had one character that I spent much longer working my way up to Admiral.
I think reaching the rank of Admiral should be somewhat separate from getting commander or captain, possibly based on meritorious actions instead of just XP.
Of course, to be really cannon appropriate, we'd have to start out serving on a ship, instead of running it and that's something that's just never gonna happen, sadly.
captainbrenden
Re: A Rant About Rank
Some excellent points, but I'd like to touch on a two of them that I had considered when I was writing my first novella, but got lost in my somewhat wordy flood of thoughts…
First, I had considered the fact that the galaxy is a big place. Where 500 or 1000 admirals would be unheard of here on earth where a single sovereign military may not really exceed more than about 1.4 mil (which was the size of the entire US military in 2010), obviously Starfleet is a significantly larger organization. My only qualm with that is totally in the writing because they never really tell us how big Starfleet is. The Battle of Wolf 359, which destroyed 39 starships and killed around 11,000 people, was a implied to be a massive blow to the make-up of Stafleet. Even two years later during the Klingon Civil War of 2368, Picard has a hell of a time assembling the 23 starships he needs to form his blockade of the Klingon/Romulan boarder. Its not until the Dominion War kicks off that we start to see massive fleets containing hundreds of starships… and even then, who is running those shows? Approximately one admiral per fleet (which is Admiral Ross for most of what we've gotten to see in DS9). But even fleet command occasionally falls to Captains. Picard and Sisko both commanded several fleets and battlegroups throughout their on-screen careers.
[On a side note: It makes me sad that we didn't at least get a "hear through the grape vine" some of Picard and company's exploits during the Dominion War. I mean, its the flagship for crying out loud and Picard is a brilliant commander. Some lip service from the writers might have been nice… but oh well.]
Second. The notion that an admiral can do whatever the F they want would be my second pet peeve. Yes, there is an exceptional amount of authority and autonomy for an admiral. Within the scope of their respective organizations they have the latitude to be choose their own course of action. However, everyone has a boss and Starfleet admirals are no exception. In this case its the Federation Council and the President (very similar to Congress and the President here in the real world) who dictate the scope of the Federation's activities and policies. Starfleet's job is to explore and keep the peace under the rules the the Council has laid down--they are the tool through which policy is executed, not formulated. So the idea of hordes of red-shirts marching to the whims of an admiral simply because he/she is an admiral is… silly. I think it would also be honest to point out that we do see several admirals through the series that do have the mindset that an admiral's power is supreme, but weren't they usually the villains of the respective plots? (i.e. Cartwright and the Khitomer fiasco, Dougherty and the Son'a blunder, Leyton and the coupe…)
Ok… now I think I'm done. Thanks again guys for you input and joining me on this little exploration of thought.
PS. Even the great Kathryn Janeway--valiant steward of USS Voyager, nemesis to the Borg, and aunt to omnipotent beings--ended up with a desk job along with her shiny new boxed in pip.
First, I had considered the fact that the galaxy is a big place. Where 500 or 1000 admirals would be unheard of here on earth where a single sovereign military may not really exceed more than about 1.4 mil (which was the size of the entire US military in 2010), obviously Starfleet is a significantly larger organization. My only qualm with that is totally in the writing because they never really tell us how big Starfleet is. The Battle of Wolf 359, which destroyed 39 starships and killed around 11,000 people, was a implied to be a massive blow to the make-up of Stafleet. Even two years later during the Klingon Civil War of 2368, Picard has a hell of a time assembling the 23 starships he needs to form his blockade of the Klingon/Romulan boarder. Its not until the Dominion War kicks off that we start to see massive fleets containing hundreds of starships… and even then, who is running those shows? Approximately one admiral per fleet (which is Admiral Ross for most of what we've gotten to see in DS9). But even fleet command occasionally falls to Captains. Picard and Sisko both commanded several fleets and battlegroups throughout their on-screen careers.
[On a side note: It makes me sad that we didn't at least get a "hear through the grape vine" some of Picard and company's exploits during the Dominion War. I mean, its the flagship for crying out loud and Picard is a brilliant commander. Some lip service from the writers might have been nice… but oh well.]
Second. The notion that an admiral can do whatever the F they want would be my second pet peeve. Yes, there is an exceptional amount of authority and autonomy for an admiral. Within the scope of their respective organizations they have the latitude to be choose their own course of action. However, everyone has a boss and Starfleet admirals are no exception. In this case its the Federation Council and the President (very similar to Congress and the President here in the real world) who dictate the scope of the Federation's activities and policies. Starfleet's job is to explore and keep the peace under the rules the the Council has laid down--they are the tool through which policy is executed, not formulated. So the idea of hordes of red-shirts marching to the whims of an admiral simply because he/she is an admiral is… silly. I think it would also be honest to point out that we do see several admirals through the series that do have the mindset that an admiral's power is supreme, but weren't they usually the villains of the respective plots? (i.e. Cartwright and the Khitomer fiasco, Dougherty and the Son'a blunder, Leyton and the coupe…)
Ok… now I think I'm done. Thanks again guys for you input and joining me on this little exploration of thought.
PS. Even the great Kathryn Janeway--valiant steward of USS Voyager, nemesis to the Borg, and aunt to omnipotent beings--ended up with a desk job along with her shiny new boxed in pip.
hydraulix
Re: It's OK to be Takei!
is it similar to it being passed my the House of Commons but not the House of Lords, meh I dunno im Takei, it makes my brain hurt lol
It's not really comparable to that. This is the only state to pass such legislation, it's not related to our national government. It only affects schools in Tennessee. Still, it's disheartening that it would pass in any state. I should think their politicians would have better things to worry about than whether their school history books mention the start of the gay rights movement and such.
Captdry
Re: It's OK to be Takei!
is it similar to it being passed my the House of Commons but not the House of Lords, meh I dunno im Takei, it makes my brain hurt lol
Ranir
Ranir
Re: A Rant About Rank
Love the rant. But some of you know me, i love to look at the picture from the outside. And I agree 100%, but I like to point out things from the other side.. :evil:
Yeah I think the ranking system is flawed, and it does restrict a lot of potential level expansion, but I doubt that's a concern for down the line, and if it is, they can always revamp it. As far as nobody being Captains of ships as Lt's etc. That's not entirely true. Depending on the class of ship even in the real US Navy there were LT and LT jg ship captains, these are usually small ships small patrol vessels, WW2 PT boats, etc. So it's not unheard of. And it appears they attempted to keep with that theme with of course tiering the ships as you level.
As far as #'s of Admirals, granted there should never be this # of Admirals in one place other then special Ceremonies/occasions/dire needs. But remember this, we are thinking on a Earth Population scale of people. Even so far as as low as a per Navy basis. In the Star Trek Universe, there are untold umpteen billions upon billions of sentient beings, and so theoretically there would be millions of members of Starfleet. Hence there would be a LOT of admirals. And in the shows, with very few exceptional episodes, they are taking place in 1 small area of space. We'll take DS9, not including off tangent episodes or through the wormhole. Most of the primary action takes place in the areas between Bajor and Cardassia. That's a lot of area to cover in relativistic terms and that's a tiny fraction of space. Also remember Space is 3-D. It's not Pie Shaped, it's Orange Shaped. Use an Onion as Example, cut it into 8 sections, each section is covered by a FA, as example, then each layer of each section is covered by a VA, example. And Space is a LOT bigger then an Onion so it could be cut into 1000, 10000, 100000 sections.. And granted the Federation isn't in/cover the entire "onion" even if you take out those sections, it's a huge galaxy.
Unfortunately due to the tinyness of the current STO areas available. It is ridiculous to see this many Admirals this close together. But if you look at it from a literal #'s point of view. We need more Admirals.. :blink:
And as far as Admiral's not Captaining a ship personally. (I'm an Admiral I'm gonna do whatever the hell I want. :whistle: )
Yeah I think the ranking system is flawed, and it does restrict a lot of potential level expansion, but I doubt that's a concern for down the line, and if it is, they can always revamp it. As far as nobody being Captains of ships as Lt's etc. That's not entirely true. Depending on the class of ship even in the real US Navy there were LT and LT jg ship captains, these are usually small ships small patrol vessels, WW2 PT boats, etc. So it's not unheard of. And it appears they attempted to keep with that theme with of course tiering the ships as you level.
As far as #'s of Admirals, granted there should never be this # of Admirals in one place other then special Ceremonies/occasions/dire needs. But remember this, we are thinking on a Earth Population scale of people. Even so far as as low as a per Navy basis. In the Star Trek Universe, there are untold umpteen billions upon billions of sentient beings, and so theoretically there would be millions of members of Starfleet. Hence there would be a LOT of admirals. And in the shows, with very few exceptional episodes, they are taking place in 1 small area of space. We'll take DS9, not including off tangent episodes or through the wormhole. Most of the primary action takes place in the areas between Bajor and Cardassia. That's a lot of area to cover in relativistic terms and that's a tiny fraction of space. Also remember Space is 3-D. It's not Pie Shaped, it's Orange Shaped. Use an Onion as Example, cut it into 8 sections, each section is covered by a FA, as example, then each layer of each section is covered by a VA, example. And Space is a LOT bigger then an Onion so it could be cut into 1000, 10000, 100000 sections.. And granted the Federation isn't in/cover the entire "onion" even if you take out those sections, it's a huge galaxy.
Unfortunately due to the tinyness of the current STO areas available. It is ridiculous to see this many Admirals this close together. But if you look at it from a literal #'s point of view. We need more Admirals.. :blink:
And as far as Admiral's not Captaining a ship personally. (I'm an Admiral I'm gonna do whatever the hell I want. :whistle: )
alimac30
Re: It's OK to be Takei!
Update from Tennessee...
"Tennessee Senate OKs bill to ban teaching of homosexuality"
It looks to have passed the senate with a 19-11 vote. However the House of Representatives have removed it from consideration...this year. Here is a link to the story from a local news station.
http://www.wmctv.com/story/14684904/senate-oks-bill-to-ban-teaching-of-homosexuality
Yes, sadly, Mr Takei himself just tweeted that it passed 19 votes to 11.
So what does it actually mean that the House of Representatives have removed it from consideration this year? I'm not American, and don't understand how your bills pass into law...
Seannewboy
ethanmuldoon
Re: It's OK to be Takei!
Update from Tennessee...
"Tennessee Senate OKs bill to ban teaching of homosexuality"
It looks to have passed the senate with a 19-11 vote. However the House of Representatives have removed it from consideration...this year. Here is a link to the story from a local news station.
http://www.wmctv.com/story/14684904/senate-oks-bill-to-ban-teaching-of-homosexuality
"Tennessee Senate OKs bill to ban teaching of homosexuality"
It looks to have passed the senate with a 19-11 vote. However the House of Representatives have removed it from consideration...this year. Here is a link to the story from a local news station.
http://www.wmctv.com/story/14684904/senate-oks-bill-to-ban-teaching-of-homosexuality
MarkNine
Re: Star Trekked Songs
Walk Like a Caitian (Walk Like an Egyptian, The Bangles)
4 Minutes to Save the Core (4 Minutes to Save the World, J.T. & Madonna)
Bridge Over Tribbled Quarters (Bridge over Troubled Waters, various)
Ferengi Face (Poker Face, Lady Gaga)
What it Feels Like for a Gorn (What it Feels Like for a Girl, Madonna)
Keep Assimilating (Keep'Em Separated, Offspring)
Bat'Leth Fighting (Kung Fu Fighting, Carl Douglas)
4 Minutes to Save the Core (4 Minutes to Save the World, J.T. & Madonna)
Bridge Over Tribbled Quarters (Bridge over Troubled Waters, various)
Ferengi Face (Poker Face, Lady Gaga)
What it Feels Like for a Gorn (What it Feels Like for a Girl, Madonna)
Keep Assimilating (Keep'Em Separated, Offspring)
Bat'Leth Fighting (Kung Fu Fighting, Carl Douglas)
Unknown Person
Re: It's OK to be Takei!
OMG, that darling darling man this was so cool of him to do this. It'd be so awesome if they ran this on local TV in Tennesee.
@Captdry: Generally speaking the American South tends to be less progressive than other parts of the country. (No offense to our Southern Fleeties whatsoever). Especially when it comes to Civil rights. Martin Luther King was shot in Memphis, Tennessee. That being said; the people of Tennesee are actually very sweet and well mannered (at least the ones I've spoken to) and they've got one of the nicest Southern accents aside from Georgians. I get to talk to people from all over the country in my line of work as a CSR rep.
@Captdry: Generally speaking the American South tends to be less progressive than other parts of the country. (No offense to our Southern Fleeties whatsoever). Especially when it comes to Civil rights. Martin Luther King was shot in Memphis, Tennessee. That being said; the people of Tennesee are actually very sweet and well mannered (at least the ones I've spoken to) and they've got one of the nicest Southern accents aside from Georgians. I get to talk to people from all over the country in my line of work as a CSR rep.
kiddkasper
Re: A Rant About Rank
I had this very concern when STO came out with Vice Admirals. Star Trek ranks have always been similar to Navy ranks (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/navy_legacy_hr.asp?id=266)
At this point, the only ranks left are "Admiral" and "Fleet Admiral". I am of the opinion that the level system should be redesigned from the ground up. However, that would take some major reworking of various aspects of the game.
At this point, the only ranks left are "Admiral" and "Fleet Admiral". I am of the opinion that the level system should be redesigned from the ground up. However, that would take some major reworking of various aspects of the game.
andyluv
Re: It's OK to be Takei!
Hats off to George for hitting a home run with a strong message and a good sense of humour......
i agree to a degree - play on words is great.
I hold the belief that you give power to words, as a community our response to words like gay, faggot, nancy etc can be negative or positive. if we have a positive response to the word we can dis empower it - remove the meaning. much like the word GAY has had a couple of different meaning in its history
That is very true...back home in Brazil, the word that people would curse gays with (something like faggot in English) started to be used in the gay community as an endearing word...so every gay guy would call each other "faggie, faggiesh" or something similar in a "fun/endearing" way...it stopped being something to be ashamed of...
...and then straight people started to see it wasn't offensive anymore :P
Takei win! :ds9:
Captdry
Re: A Rant About Rank
He did and the theme running through the TOS movies was that Kirk didnt suit being an Admiral. He used the V'Ger crisis to get back in command of the Enterprise and Bones warned him in Wrath of Khan to get his command back before he turned old.
The happiest moment for Admiral Kirk was when he was demoted to Captain lol
The happiest moment for Admiral Kirk was when he was demoted to Captain lol
Angel
Re: A Rant About Rank
I totally agree with you all. You could try posting on the official forums, but I imagine this discussion has been and gone a dozen times already!
Even though my main, ARCH-I, is a Vice Admiral, I display Captain as the rank above my name... because as far as I'm concerned, that's what I am. It's a shame that I have to try and pretend one of the game systems doesn't exist. :(
AFAIK, Anyone above Captain would normally be behind a desk, pushing PADDs around (possibly a fun mini-game!). There were many episodes focussing on this... didn't Picard refuse Admiralty a couple of time because he wanted to carrying on flying about on adventures?
Even though my main, ARCH-I, is a Vice Admiral, I display Captain as the rank above my name... because as far as I'm concerned, that's what I am. It's a shame that I have to try and pretend one of the game systems doesn't exist. :(
AFAIK, Anyone above Captain would normally be behind a desk, pushing PADDs around (possibly a fun mini-game!). There were many episodes focussing on this... didn't Picard refuse Admiralty a couple of time because he wanted to carrying on flying about on adventures?
Rickster
Re: It's OK to be Takei!
You make a good point Poppit.
I also agree that how we react to "words" is just a powerful as changing how people use them.
Perhaps a combination of both approaches would reach the most people to achieve the greatest amount of change on both sides of the coin.
:)
I also agree that how we react to "words" is just a powerful as changing how people use them.
Perhaps a combination of both approaches would reach the most people to achieve the greatest amount of change on both sides of the coin.
:)
Poppit
Re: It's OK to be Takei!
Hats off to George for hitting a home run with a strong message and a good sense of humour......
i agree to a degree - play on words is great.
I hold the belief that you give power to words, as a community our response to words like gay, faggot, nancy etc can be negative or positive. if we have a positive response to the word we can dis empower it - remove the meaning. much like the word GAY has had a couple of different meaning in its history
i agree to a degree - play on words is great.
I hold the belief that you give power to words, as a community our response to words like gay, faggot, nancy etc can be negative or positive. if we have a positive response to the word we can dis empower it - remove the meaning. much like the word GAY has had a couple of different meaning in its history
Rickster
Re: It's OK to be Takei!
Gay rights in Canada are doing pretty well. There's always room for some improvement from a legal perspective in making things equal. But we've made a lot of in roads here.
I think the biggest challenge here and probably elsewhere as well, is changing mainstream culture to be more considerate of those who are different.
The part of Takei's video that really spoke to me is the way adults / kids today use the word gay to describe something they think is silly or stupid. This is so inappropriate in so many levels. I've had to enlighten co-workers, straight friends, and even some family members about how using a word that describes me to describe something they have little regard for was disrespectful. Regardless if it was their intention or not to make a homophobic comment, it is disrespectful.
Hats off to George for hitting a home run with a strong message and a good sense of humour.
I think the biggest challenge here and probably elsewhere as well, is changing mainstream culture to be more considerate of those who are different.
The part of Takei's video that really spoke to me is the way adults / kids today use the word gay to describe something they think is silly or stupid. This is so inappropriate in so many levels. I've had to enlighten co-workers, straight friends, and even some family members about how using a word that describes me to describe something they have little regard for was disrespectful. Regardless if it was their intention or not to make a homophobic comment, it is disrespectful.
Hats off to George for hitting a home run with a strong message and a good sense of humour.
Rickster
Re: A Rant About Rank
I never gave any thought to this point before... but I think you're 100% justified in your thoughts.
Maybe you should post your opinion on the STO forums. I'm sure there are many other fans, including myself, who would think there is a lot of merit in the point your making.
Maybe you should post your opinion on the STO forums. I'm sure there are many other fans, including myself, who would think there is a lot of merit in the point your making.