Classical Love Poetry (translated from Greek or Latin)

Jwcisneros

Lorenius

Classical Love Poetry (translated from Greek or Latin)

February 04 2013
I have decided for both the Fleet's benefit and my own translating skills, I will translate one gay (or lesbian) themed love poem from the Middle Ages or before per week. I will make short notes about the translation after reproducing my translation. Some will be short and others will be long. I apologize in advance for any transliteration mistakes, I am the sole owner of such goofs.

~Jeff
aka Lorenius
4 people liked this
Edited February 04 2013 by Lorenius
Jwcisneros

Lorenius

First Poem (Ganymede, 13th Century AD/CE)

February 04 2013
Eyes, neck, cheeks, curl of golden hair__
These were the flames of Jove for his Ganymede.
When Jupiter was seeking to allow himself a little [pleasure] with the boy,
The god ordained that all things were licit with a boy.
Heedless of the care of the world or the murmurs of the gods,
Of the tongue of his injured wife and of heaven,
He bore the Ilian lad to the heavens, a star to the stars,
And finally even believed he was a god,
So that the kept boy could please him by touch as well as sight.
By daylight he bore Jove his cup and at night kisses.

_________________________________________________________________________

A few notes, Ganymede was a young shepherd boy that captured Jupiter's fancy. The references to youth in romantic poetic verse (boy) does not indicate a prepubescent child, but a young man. In line 3, [pleasure] is the closest word available for direct translation, nothing else makes sense. Just for the sake of clarity I checked Boswell and notes in Medieval Latin. The Ganymede myth permeates themes of gay love over millenia, the first references appearing in the High Classical period (5th century BC) to contemporaneous times. It is fitting that the first verse be about Ganymede.

~JC
2 people liked this
Denis

SBOSlayer

Re: First Poem (Ganymede, 13th Century AD/CE)

February 05 2013
So kool :) I'm jelous of your skill, always would have loved to learn a new language... I might just still :P

Ace poem :)
Jwcisneros

Lorenius

Re: First Poem (Ganymede, 13th Century AD/CE)

February 05 2013
If you wish to start learning Classical Latin (as opposed to Medieval/Ecclesial/Vulgar Latin), there is no greater place to start than Wheelock's Latin (6th or 7th Edition is current) and the accompanying volume to it 38 Latin Stories. 38LS corresponds to 38 of the 40 chapters in Wheelocks and will hone your translating skills. After you have learned all that Wheelocks has to offer and you want to try your hand at Medieval Latin, then the book of the same name (Medieval Latin) and the Douway-Rheims Bible are great tools.

No, I am not advocating you find God or get religion, the D-R Bible happens to be one of the better sources to translate Ecclesial/Medieval Latin from, and the Church produced the most written Latin in the Middle Ages.

No need to be jealous. I am the one who wants to be a University Professor in a highly esoteric field. Latin is essential and Greek is highly encouraged. Also Hochtmittelalters (High Middle Ages German), Old French, and Ancient Italian are good research languages (although Ancient Italian is a rip-roaring bitch in heels to learn, even with modern Italian under your belt).

If you prefer to stay in English, try your hand at both Old and Middle English. Although I recommend you keep alcohol handy because they both only slightly resemble modern English.

Is intelligence sexy or merely geeky?

~Jeff
aka T'oi@Lorenius
Edited February 05 2013 by Lorenius
Bren Ohmsford

Bren

Re: Classical Love Poetry (translated from Greek or Latin)

February 05 2013
I probably wouldn't understand a word of it, but would it be possible for you to post the original untranslated version as well? I'm always fascinated by how old languages look and sound.
Jwcisneros

Lorenius

Re: Classical Love Poetry (translated from Greek or Latin)

February 05 2013
I am away from my books which are all in my room, but I will post the untranslated version tomorrow 6 February...(bear in mind I am +9 from the Pacific coast of the US, +6 Eastern). If there is enough interest, I will post the translations and then the untranslated version afterwards.

~J
Unknown Person liked this
Jamie

tuvak

Re: Classical Love Poetry (translated from Greek or Latin)

February 06 2013
i took 3 years of latin in high school. it was actually very helpful. i was a nerd and even won lots of prizes at our yearly latin convention where all the schools in the state of new jersey would meet and compete in various categories. i won first place in latin oration two of those years....had to memorize a full page of latin each time.

don't feel bad bren. we can [re]learn latin together. :-)
Unknown Person liked this
Isaac Burrough

MrIzzy

Re: Classical Love Poetry (translated from Greek or Latin)

February 06 2013
Quote by tuvak
i was a nerd


SHUT!


UP!


No waaaaaaayyy! It is soooo hard for me to believe that!


:P
Unknown Person liked this
Jamie

tuvak

Re: Classical Love Poetry (translated from Greek or Latin)

February 06 2013
i think we need some new functionality for the site. right next to the 'thank you' button we need an 'electrocute user' button and a 'dancing with denis' button. the lucky recipient of that button has to endure a one hour square dancing session with denis while listening to bagpipes.

and...i wasn't just a nerd, i was one of those teacher's pet kinds of nerds.the kind everybody hated. LOL.
3 people liked this
Jwcisneros

Lorenius

Re: Classical Love Poetry (translated from Greek or Latin)

February 06 2013
This is the poem in original Latin. it may be found in the Anthologia Latina (No. 795)

Lumina coua genae flaui flexura capilli
In Ganymede suo flamma fuere loui.
luppiter in puerum quaerens sibi pauca licere
In puero statuit cuncta licere deus.
Oblitusque poli curas et murmura diuum
Et linguam laesae coniugis atque louem
Iliacum tulit ad superos, ad sidera sidus,
Et se tunc tandem credidit esse deum.
Vtque puer pellex uisu tactuque liceret,
Oscula nocte loui, pocula luce dabat.

translation hotes: In Latin the I at the front of a name or word is pronounced like the letter U in English. So Iuppiter is Upiter, or more aptly like the Spanish ll. Better represented by YU-piter. All letter C's are hard [k] sounds all letter G's are hard as well [guh]. Where you see instances of puero or puerum, puero= boy, puerum= boys [pl]. The letter r's are trilled, the best description of how to reproduce a trilled r is to place the tip of your tongue on the back of your teeth and say "errr." The letter V always pronounced like the letter W, so Vita is pronounced (Wee-tah).


Finally, dipthongs:

ae- as in ai in aisle: cārae, saepe
au- as ou in house: aut, laudō
ei- as ei in reign: deinde
eu- as Latin e + u, pronounced rapidly as a single syllable: seu (say-oo).
oe- as oi in oil: coepit, proelium
ui- as in Latin u + i, spoken as a single syllable like Spanish muy, or like English gooey, pronounced quickly as a single syllable. This diphthong occurs only in: huius, cuius, huic, cui, hui.


Welcome to brain overload.

~Jeff
Jwcisneros

Lorenius

Publius Vergilius Maro (Virgil): The Second Eclogue

February 12 2013
In the Second Eclogue, Corydon a shepherd is passionately in love with Alexis, who ignores him. This unrequited love drives Corydon to sing (in order to limit his anguish). Obviously, Alexis is also male.


[1] Corydon, the shepherd, was aflame for the fair Alexis, his master’s pet, nor knew he what to hope. As his one solace, he would day by day come among the thick beeches with their shady summits, and there alone in unavailing passion fling these artless strains to the hills and woods:

[6] “O cruel Alexis, care you naught for my songs? Have you no pity for me? You will drive me at last to death. Now even the cattle court the cool shade; now even the green lizards hide in the brakes, and Thestylis pounds for the reapers, spent with the scorching heat, her savoury herbs of garlic and thyme. But as I track your footprints, the copses under the burning sun echo my voice with that of the shrill cicadas. Was it not better to brook Amaryllis’ sullen rage and scornful disdain? or Menalcas, though e was dark and you are fair? Ah, lovely boy, trust not too much to your bloom! The white privets fall, the dark hyacinths are culled!

[19] “You scorn me, Alexis, and ask not what I am – how rich in cattle, how wealthy in snow-white milk! A thousand lambs of mine roam over the Sicilian hills; new milk fails me not, summer or winter. I sing as Amphion of Dirce used to sing, when calling home the herds on Attic Aracynthus. Nor am I so unsightly; on the shore the other day I looked at myself, when, by grace of the winds, the sea was at peace and still. With you for judge, I should fear not Daphnis, if the mirror never lies!

[28] “O if you would but live with me in our rude fields and lowly cots, shooting the deer and driving the flock of kids with a green hibiscus switch! With me in the woods you shall rival Pan in song. Pan it was who first taught man to make many reeds one with wax; Pan cares for the sheep and the shepherds of the sheep. Nor would you be sorry to have chafed your lip with a reed; to learn this same art, what did not Amyntas do? I have a pipe formed of seven uneven hemlock stalks, a gift Damoetas once gave me and said, as he lay a-dying, ‘Now it claims you as its second master.’ So said Damoetas; Amyntas, foolish one, felt envious. Nay more, two roes – I found them in a dangerous valley – their hides still sprinkled with white, drain a ewe’s udders twice a day. These I keep for you. Thestylis has long been begging to get them from me – and so she shall, as in your eyes my gifts are mean.

[45] “Come hither, lovely boy! See, for you the Nymphs bring lilies in heaped-up baskets; for you the fair Naiad, plucking pale violets and poppy heads, blends narcissus and sweet-scented fennel flower; then, twining them with cassia and other sweet herbs, sets off the delicate hyacinth with the golden marigold. My own hands will gather quinces, pale with tender down, and chestnuts, which my Amaryllis loved. Waxen plums I will add – this fruit, too, shall have its honour. You too, O laurels, I will pluck, and you, their neighbour myrtle, for so placed you blend sweet fragrance.

[56] “Corydon, you are a clown! Alexis cares naught for gifts, nor if with gifts you were to vie, would Iollas yield. Alas, alas! What hope, poor fool, has been mine? Madman, I have let in the south wind to my flowers, and boars to my crystal springs! Ah, idiot, who do you flee? Even the gods have dwelt in the woods, and Dardan Paris. Let Pallas dwell by herself in the cities she has built; but let my chief delight be the woods! The grim lioness follows the wolf, the wolf himself the goat, the wanton goat the flowering clover, and Corydon follows you, Alexis. Each is led by his liking. See, the bullocks drag home by the yoke the hanging plough, and the retiring sun doubles the lengthening shadows. Yet love still burns in me; for what bound can be set to love? Ah, Corydon, Corydon, what madness has gripped you? Your vine is but half-pruned on the leafy elm. Nay, why not at least set about plaiting some thing your need calls for, with twigs and pliant rushes? You will find another Alexis, if this one scorns you.”
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Jwcisneros

Lorenius

Re: Classical Love Poetry (translated from Greek or Latin)

February 20 2013
Today I will post a poem of Catullus in the vernacular, without translation. This poem was translated by two seperate scholars in 1894. Sir Richard Francis Burton, who was offended by Catullus' frequent references to male on male sexual situations. The other translation from the same year was made by Leonard C. Smithers, who was less inclined to be judgmental. I will post my personal translation of it tomorrow.

NB: Burton's translations are considered altered by the translator. His translations are thus considered problematic by most reasonable modern Classicists.

Catullus 16

Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo,
Aureli pathice et cinaede Furi,
qui me ex versiculis meis putastis,
quod sunt molliculi, parum pudicum.
nam castum esse decet pium poetam
ipsum, versiculos nihil necesse est,
qui tum denique habent salem ac leporem,
si sunt molliculi ac parum pudici
et quod pruriat incitare possunt,
non dico pueris, sed his pilosis,
qui duros nequeunt movere lumbos.
vos quod milia multa basiorum
legistis, male me marem putatis?
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo.


This poem is strictly not a love poem, but it is interesting. Catullus greatly influenced Martial, who wrote some of the finest verses of "gay" love in Latin.
Jwcisneros

Lorenius

Re: Classical Love Poetry (translated from Greek or Latin)

February 21 2013
Original:

Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo,
Aureli pathice et cinaede Furi,
qui me ex versiculis meis putastis,
quod sunt molliculi, parum pudicum.
nam castum esse decet pium poetam
ipsum, versiculos nihil necesse est,
qui tum denique habent salem ac leporem,
si sunt molliculi ac parum pudici
et quod pruriat incitare possunt,
non dico pueris, sed his pilosis,
qui duros nequeunt movere lumbos.
vos quod milia multa basiorum
legistis, male me marem putatis?
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo.

Three forms of physical sexual acts are renderable in Latin

1. Pedicator- Literally, "lover (fucker) of boys."
2. Futator - Literally, "lover (fucker) of women."
3. Irrumator- No literal translation. Oral sex either involving taking a penis in one's mouth, or licking a vagina. The only way to know if the act is being performed on a man or a woman is the gender attached to the stem of the verb. This was considered filthy by the Greeks and Romans, although it certainly did not stop oral sex from being performed frequently.

e.g. pedicabo is masculine single, pedicabi is masculine plural.

In Greek there were two types of love:

Aphrodite Pandemos- Common love. Love for pure physical need. Oral sex was always "pandemos," fucking a woman was common, and certain acts between male partners was common or pandemic.

Aphrodite Urania - Heavenly love. Love that transcended the mere physical act. Anal sex was mostly pandemic, except with your young man, but the physical expression that was always "heavenly" was diamerion, where the aggressor inserted his penis between his lover's thighs from either front or behind.

Now prepared with a short course on Greek and Roman practices, we launch into Catullus's poem.

Poems were used to woo, comment, or respond to daily life. Catullus 16 is a response to Aurelius (Marcus) and Furious, who asserted that Catullus was soft (molle) or womanly (mulierius).

I will make you my boys and fuck you (in the mouth),
passive# Aurelius and sissy* Furius,
you think, because my verses are delicate,
that I am a sissy. It is right that a poet be chaste himself;
it is not at all necessary for his verses to be.
My verses may have taste and charm,
if they are delicate and sexy enough,
and because they are sexy and can arouse.
I do not say boys—but this hairy pair
who can't shake their stiff penises.
Because you have read of my many thousand kisses,
you deny my masculinity?
I will make you my boys and fuck you (in the mouth)!

#pathice (pat-ee-kay)- literally means "passive" which is an insult to an adult Greek or Roman. In all affairs, an adult man was supposed to be aggressive or the top. Boys who had yet become adult were not considered having a male gender, they could bottom without repurcussions. There was no role switching or "versatiles" in Greece or Rome.

*cinaede - This word has no direct translation into modern English. We have many words to describe things that the Greeks did not think about or have the linguistic tools to create. It could mean "sissy boy" or "gay man," but scholars have argued about this word as much as the Greek "arsenokotai."

~J
Edited February 21 2013 by Lorenius
Jwcisneros

Lorenius

Re: Classical Love Poetry (translated from Greek or Latin)

February 28 2013
Alright, time for a long poem, I have already translated it from the source and confirmed as much of the translation as I could. The fun part of doing this is the discovery.

Author: Marbod, Bishop of Rennes (d. 1123)

Horace composed an ode about a certain boy
Whose face was so lovely he could have easily been a girl,
Whose hair fell in waves against his ivory neck,
Whose forehead was as white as snow and his eyes as black as pitch,
Whose soft cheeks were full of delicious sweetness
When they bloomed in the brightness of a blush of beauty.
His nose was perfect, his lips flame red, lovely his teeth---
An exterior formed in measure to match his mind.

This vision of a face, radiant and full of beauty,
Kindled with the torch of love the heart of whoever beheld him.
But this boy, so lovely and appealing,
A torment to all who looked upon him,
Was made by nature so cruel and unyielding
Than he would die rather than yield to love.
Harsh and ungrateful, as if born of a tiger,
He only laughed at the soft words of admirers,
Laughed at their vain efforts,
Laughed at the tears of a sighing lover.
He laughed at those whom he himself was causing to perish.
Surely he is wicked, cruel and wicked,
Who by the viciousness of his character denies the beauty of his body.
A fair face should have a wholesome mind,
Patient and not proud but yielding in this or that.
The little flower of age is swift, of surpassing brevity;
Soon it wastes away, vanishes, and cannot be revived.
This flesh so fair, so milky, so flawless,
So healthy, so lovely, so glowing, so soft---
The time will come when it is ugly and rough,
When this youthful skin will become repulsive.
So while you bloom, adopt a more becoming demeanor.

Square this sort of poetry from a Bishop with a modern Church that condemns love for any reason other than the rough purpose of procreation...only. The rest is grave sin.

~J

*Translation credit: Boswell, John E. and Dronke, Medieval Latin.
Edited March 01 2013 by Lorenius
Jwcisneros

Lorenius

Re: Classical Love Poetry (translated from Greek or Latin)

March 08 2013
Salve omnes!

Before I post another poem it is time to get you started on basic vocabulary and grammar.
.
Wheelock's Latin

Chapter One

Verbs; 1st and 2nd Conjugations

- me, myself quid- what

nihil- nothing nōn- not

saepe - often - if

amō, amāre,,amāvī,amātum - to love, like. amābō, tē - please

cōgitō, cōgitāre, cōgitāvī, cōgitātum- to think, ponder, consider, plan.

dḗbeō, dēbḗre, dḗbuī, dḗbitum- to owe; ought, must, should.

dō, dare, dedī, datum - to give, offer

errō, errāre, errāvī, errātum - to wander; err, go astray; make a mistake, be mistaken

laudō, laudāre, laudāvī, laudātum- to praise

moneō, monēre, monuī, monitum- to remind, advise, warn

salveō, salvēre- to be well, be in good health

salvē, salvēte- hello, greetings

servō, servāre, servāvī, servātum- to preserve, save, keep, guard

cōnservō, cōnservāre, cōnservāvī, cōnservātum- to preserve, conserve, maintain.

terreō, terrēre, terruī, territum- to frighten, terrify.

valeō, valēre, valuī, valitūrum- to be strong, have power; be well

valē, valēte- good-bye, farewell

videō, vidēre, vīdī, vīsum- too see; observe, understand.

vocō, vocāre, vocāvī, vocātum- to call, to summon.

*Reproduction is permitted for non-commercial academic purposes*
Edited March 08 2013 by Lorenius
Jwcisneros

Lorenius

Re: Classical Love Poetry (translated from Greek or Latin)

March 09 2013
The next poem comes from Peter Abelard, his 6th planctus.

More than a brother to me Jonathan,
One in soul with me...
How could I have taken such evil advice
And not stood by your side in battle?
How gladly would I die
And be buried with you!
Since love may do nothing greater than this,
And since to live after you
Is to die forever:
Half a soul is not enough for life.
Then--at the moment of final agony--
I should have rendered
Either of friendship's dues:
To share the triumph
Or suffer the defeat;
Either to rescue you
Or to fall with you,
Shedding for you that life
Which you so often saved,
So that even death would join
Rather than part us.

I can still my lute,
But not my sobs and tears:
A heart is too shattered
By the plucking of stricken hands,
The hoarse sobbing of voices.


Hilary the Englishman studied under Abelard, but we will address Hilary later. Hilary's poetry is exquisite.

Citation: Oxford Book of Medieval Latin Verse, ed. F.J. Raby.
Translation: Boswell, Raby, and JC.

~Lore