Please Reopen Legion Fleet Holding Projects

Dear Leader/s,

I'd like to kindly please request that active projects for Stonewall Legion Fleet Holdings -- Dilithium Mine, Embassy, and Spire -- be returned to regular rotation.

Friendly Fleet leaders and members today replied to my in-game chat query to explain the reason why the holdings were paused. I understand and appreciate the concept.

Still, I think that resuming projects for the Legion holdings would improve player experience and morale in both the Fleet and the Armada as a whole. Players are keen to donate to projects throughout the Armada and we appreciate seeing as many projects in play as possible.

Thank you as always for all your hard work and stewardship of the Fleet and now Armada and thank you for considering my request.

Long Life & Happiness,

Aty

PS Apologies if I missed a forum post on the subject or if I posted to the wrong forum.

No worries. Moved to Ten Forward.

What are you looking to donate to the Fleet Projects?

It's not so much that I have a particular resource burning a hole in my hold that I want to unload as it's that I routinely cycle through the active Armada holding projects and items I have on hand that fit a need, I donate, or, if I see that an active project is languishing, I obtain what's needed and donate it.

One of the major advantages and draws to the new Armada system is members having more opportunities to donate to Fleet Projects and I know that players appreciate seeing as many active projects available as possible within Stonewall Fleets and across the Armada. :D

With that said, if there is a critical shortfall of a particular resource needed for Fleet Projects, I'm more than happy to personally contribute as much as I possibly can and I'm likewise more than happy to suggest different strategies to solicit the needed materials from other Armada members (though I cannot guarantee efficacy). :)

Thanks again for the consideration.

Hello Aty,

Thank you for writing this and expressing your concerns.
For a while now Legion has been a concern for us in regards of whats the best route to take, in order for Legion to rise with its other brothers, Deep Space Stonewall, and Main Stonewall.
We constantly monitor each project and what it demands, and how long it takes to fill up to complete each project.

We look at what we think should be a priority, in this recent decision we want to try and get our Starbase on par with our other fleets, we also wanted to grow the new research lab, so that it could be in sync with the other fleets Lab growth.

Sadly.. this is not happening, projects are still yet to be filled, even now when Im looking at the open slots that have been open for a couple of days, progression in filling them is very slow.

This in turn brings up the question of why don't we open up projects for the Spire/Embassy/Mine...
I will be blunt,.. they are not being filled.
When I first took over the resources dept, i queued a project in the Legion mine.. just to give me a clue of how long we can get it filled..
(normally Leadership uses fleet EC or our own, to buy doffs/provisions/& use our own Dil needed to fill up projects if they are stuck, We didnt this time)
i monitored the said open slot.. and it was filled up instantly with fleet marks and XP.. but then nothing else.. 3.5weeks the same one project was still open in the mine, some of you may have saw it.

This is partly the reason why I believe we should just concentrate on leveling up our new Lab, and our Legion starbase.
with the projects crazy need to have a load of doffs per project, I thought it best to just concentrate on throwing our spare doffs into as minimum slots as possible, the same with provisions needed, and Dil needed.
If we opened up more projects in the Spire/Mine/Embassy.. the Labs progression would be halved .. as would the starbase.

We have done much the same to the House of Nagh ReD, who has less active players than Legion.. and our dedication into filling the KDF starbase slots is paying off.. this time next week.. the Nagh ReD starbase will be top tier!! whoooo!

With Regards to the Armada, its been a help,.. though a small but noticeable change (coming from someone who sits & monitors projects every single day, I really do :P)
As we can now help fill legions opened projects from other toons in our other fleets.
This helps me and the resource dept boys fill up whats left to donate.. like dreaded doffs and dilithium. so we can quickly complete the project that sadly goes untouched and open up the next project.

All of the above is my polite way of saying that only the Fleet mark & XP donations get filled up when We open projects in other bases (spire/mine/Embassy) and the rest is left for others to fill.
If we were to open up all projects, you would see an abundance of unfinished slots still needing things.. our Research lab will stall as will our Starbase growth.

Going back to the Armada, and if any of us are struggling to get fleet Credits.. we have available over 50 project slots that need donations, spread across the whole Armada.
So there are a load of chances to get Credits.

in summery..
Our Turn over of Legion projects is slow.
Im sure you all agree that we would like to see our Lab complete asap
We need to find other ways of gaining credits by filling up the remainder of open slots.


I thank you for taking time out to read this, and i truly hope this makes sense as to why we sometimes have to close off completed projects, in order to help new projects grow.

If we could pull together on this, for the short term, we can get Legion to a great place.

However, Id like to invite you all on a small monitoring session with me,
Ill go in game after Ive posted this .. and Ill open up a project in legions Spire.
If we could all monitor its progression.. As well as monitoring if it effects the Labs growth.. does it slow it down etc... maybe we can come back on this thread from time to time to chat about the results?

Thank you so much for writing, and so quickly, and for taking the time to share all of your invaluable insight and experience. I'm sorry that we let you down on Legion Fleet Projects and thanks for giving us another chance. ;) Pop quiz?!?! But, but... I didn't study!!!

To respond further: I understand what you're saying, but -- you'll forgive me for likewise being blunt -- unfortunately I can't say that I agree with the approach of closing certain Holding projects.

What is the basic problem? Players are not quickly donating items other than Marks and XP?

I don't see how limiting active projects directly addresses this; I don't see how this is the optimal solution to the problem. If a player is only able or willing to donate Marks and XP, that's all that s/he will donate. You may lead ~some~ players to donate other material, but this all strikes me as somewhat punitive and coercive. Also, this premise does not work as well in the new Armada environment as players will, as you point out, simply donate elsewhere in the Armada.

What I can get on board with is, rather than eliminate certain Holdings' active projects and thus reduce the entire Armada membership's chances to donate to projects, is, for example, hold a "resource drive" for a particular Fleet Holding.

We could communicate the need in-game via Fleet (and Armada, as appropriate) messaging as well as here on the Forums.

I feel like this would be more a more constructive, positive, and community-oriented solution.

*IF* that fails, and we really MUST (but, why?) level a particular Holding... (is there a race or a stopwatch I missed?), THEN yes I would wholeheartedly support temporarily closing projects, but with plenty of communication, especially beforehand, as to why the measure has been taken (not to say that didn't happen in this case, but I didn't see it... I just thought the Legion Fleet Captains/Admirals were on vacation or something, hehehe), what the milestones are, and the approximate timeframe. Transparency, here, is key to make sure to avoid misunderstanding and preserve Armada member experience.

All that is to say that -- I think we're on the same page now (since you're launching the monitoring session)!! :D You do realize that I will make it my personal mission to keep the Legion projects moving now, right? ;)

Also, please, when you consider my words, know that I'm a huge fan of you personally, the Fleet (and, Armada!), Nick, and the rest of the Admiralty and Fleet Captains! Even if it may not be expressed often, the membership knows how much love, blood, sweat, tears, money, time, effort, you all put into making Stonewall the best of the best and that you do so graciously, despite having to contend with many perhaps thankless tasks and also the less ideal aspects of human nature (in this case, donating material that's free/cheap/easy to obtain, in other words, Marks & XP). ;)

Let me say it now: A MILLION THANK YOUs AND BLESSINGS UPON YOU.

Hugs,

Aty

To respond further: I understand what you're saying, but -- you'll forgive me for likewise being blunt -- unfortunately I can't say that I agree with the approach of closing certain Holding projects.

What is the basic problem? Players are not quickly donating items other than Marks and XP?

I understand your POV that those who only contribute fleet marks or expertise won't be affected whether there is one queue or 5. However. Those that contribute dilithium or doffs in turn have to split there donations across an extra 4 projects. This then significantly slows each holding. Especially the holdings that we wish to move quicker.

If members had there resources to contribute. They could to the primary project. Opening a new slot won't change that since what holds the project up is not having the resources in the first instance. And having an extra couple of projects only dilutes that further.

If every active member contributed a small amount of dilithium or doffs. We wouldn't have an issue. Doffs are harder to come by naturally (though there are some assignments).

If we could encourage everyone to donate 1,000 dilithium and 5 doffs a day (average) then it would make a significant difference.

7,000 dil is one day's daily refine. And pennies in real money cost :)
Doffs average 20,000 on exchange and a couple of pve mission drops could cover those costs.

These are the changes that are needed to advance projects. Not opening up more of them.

Gareth and dex hit the nail on the head here I think.

Doffs are the limiting factor across all fleets for finishing projects usually, these days science doffs are really struggling which is why DSS starbase has stalled.


Also alot of people tend to check fleet holdings from the top to the bottom, so spire and embassy projects tend to fill with doffs faster. This has the unfortunate effect that starbase projects that require hundreds off doffs languish for days and weeks while the spire, embassy and Dil mine at that point tick over the starbase (the only fleet holding we haven't maxed) isn't moving anywhere.

These policies are quite old back from when voleron was head of resources and as Gareth explained he did some experiments to see if they needed changing.

Also I think the armada system has yet to fully permeate the fleet, new things like this often take a long time for people to catch up on. Main fleet whose projects outside the research lab exist solely to provide xp ( we are maxed out and have a good amount of provisions) fill up fairly rapidly still.
If all those those resources were directed to DSS and legion so the projects that are struggling to be filled start ticking over quickly it woukdnt surprise me that more projects will open.

Sorry, williamjaneway, I wasn't able to follow entirely, but I did grasp some of your points and I appreciate your ideas.

Anyway, as I'm writing this, all ~available~ Legion Fleet Holding projects are at 100%. "All ya had to do was ask." ;)

"Please Sir, I want some more."

Aaaand... it only took almost all roughly 900,000 Fleet Credits I had managed to save in order to replicate enough Research Lab Provisions to upgrade Legion's Research Lab. I guess I asked for it!

The thing is, I'm not understanding the rush to level holdings... Where. Is. The. Fire. Also, ~who~ is driving the push? Are many rank-and-file members beating down the Admiralty's door to level Legion's Research Lab or is this top-down pressure? Personally, I'm never in a huge rush when it comes to leveling holdings and if I see that a particular holding project is open, but is not advancing, well, I have no one else to blame but myself and other members for not contributing what's needed. On the other hand, if the project is simply never opened to begin with, well, then, that's an obstacle to contributing and earning Fleet Credits.

What my old fleet used to do was to open all projects but say, "hey, we're hoping to level the shiny new holding, so can everyone please focus on x,y,z till we reach the goal of ____? kthxbai!" and that seemed to work well.

There seems to be a divide on the issue between current/former Fleet Captains/Admirals and members. Perhaps I'm mistaken. Also, I think there are slightly different priorities at play as well, because I think that many members would like to build Fleet Credits... and of course advance holdings, whereas the Admiralty wants to level holdings ASAP, period. Maybe I'm wrong. And, I suspect that the divergence in priorities is a result of who has and who does not have a surplus of Fleet Credits and other assets.

You know, at the end of the day, speaking as an average member, I contribute and I try to help other members as best I can, I give freely when asked and otherwise, and I've wanted to do more for Stonewall in the future (once I can build my assets in-game and IRL), and I'm not sure that I ask for much, if anything, and I don't think it's asking too much to queue projects... I'm not the only one who feels this way.

A big part of the issue for me in this case was communication... I had no idea what was going on... again, maybe I missed a memo. It would've been nice to simply have been asked to contribute to certain projects before getting to this point. I -- as an average member -- don't and can't have the same perspective into overall fleet operations that the leadership does.


I was hoping *not* to make a Federal case out of this. Alas, I have failed. Lesson learned, going back to my corner now. ~I'm out~ Farewell!

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No Aty no lol!!!!! :P there is no case, we are just trying to explain the reason behind our choices.

Come out from the corner and sit down with me and finish your tea! (like we are on Downton Abbey) :P

Quote by Atymnius

Anyway, as I'm writing this, all ~available~ Legion Fleet Holding projects are at 100%. "All ya had to do was ask." ;)

"Please Sir, I want some more."

Aaaand... it only took almost all roughly 900,000 Fleet Credits I had managed to save in order to replicate enough Research Lab Provisions to upgrade Legion's Research Lab. I guess I asked for it!

Thats amazing that you filled that up... it filled up fast, but.. imagine having to do that for x5 more open projects in the Spire, Mine and embassy... as well as starbase and research lab.
You would be out of EC and dil.

I understand what your saying... why are we rushing to get things complete or up to a higher level.

In the same way we want our Rep systems fully tiered, we want better things, we want to have it leveled up, and start concentrating on just getting it full of provisions (stock) so all the fleet can buy from it.

In the same way we want our toons to be level 50/60, so we can have the better ships, and go on the best PVE runs.

We would like our Bases that are still a low tier.. to be a top tier, so we can access the best, without the need to ask for a transfer to another fleet just to purchase something.

Its all part of the game, to grow, to be and to have the best.
We hope that all members feel that way too.

Like Milmar & Dex said, and what I said previous.. the mine, embassy and spire are all tiered up and complete.. and they have a LOAD of stock filled for members to buy.
So we thought, why do we need to open up more slots.. that will take away the commodities and dilithium thats so desperately needed in the Lab and base.
They just wont grow.. and we want them to grow and level up.. just like our rep systems and toons.
if we open the slots and they complete.. we gain just 7/8 items of stock.
where as if we open and complete the lab/base slots.. that gives us 1500 XP closer to leveling up. and thats helping the fleet far more.

So all the commodities and dilithium and doffs, you just used up in the spire project I just opened.. just gained us another 7 provisions..
Where as if you put all the items into the lab or base, or clicked on DSS base in the armada tab.. that would have been the more help to the fleet.

As for Being divided in our reasoning and choices among the admirals and former admirals.. I dont think there is any, we are on the same page in that we want to complete project reps to fully level them.
I think you got confused on what Milmar was saying, but there was a plan of action, in regards to helping legion level up when I first joined, I simply experimented by seeing how long certain projects take to fill, and seeing that they didnt fill confirmed that the plan of action that was already in place was the best choice.

That choice being, that I think we all would like to see Legion be a strong leveled fleet...
We have leveled the Spire/Mine/Embassy... and its fully stocked. so why put more into it? when we can focus on getting the Base and Lab fully leveled and get some stock into it.
if any who read this dont agree, please feel free to give feedback.

Your idea of a Resource drive is a good one though... but would we have to do that for each slot that is opened?
or did you mean send a mass email to ask everyone to just focus on the lab & base?
in part thats what i was hoping for, by closing down the other bases, in hopes that we concentrate in the above.
a sort of unwritten hope.
Maybe we could get together sometime and come up with a way to do a Drive as you suggested?

Which brings me to your wanting to be informed, which I respect.. So i apologize for failing to keep everyone in the know, your point is well made, and Ill try to begin updating the fleet in the future.

in Summery, we just want to grow, and level, to achieve that is to focus on just the essentials.
why waste resources on things that are already grown and have an abundance of provisions, when our other bases are struggling.
Plus lets not forget there are 50 other slots within our Armada that can be used to gain fleet creds.

If I wasn't clear there I am sorry I was typing that first thing this morning on the bus to work and Gareth clarified what I meant which hopefully makes sense for you.

Limiting the holding projects that we queue up has been a practice within the fleet that essentially dates back to shortly after the launch of fleet holdings. As we know, each new tier that's achieved for a given holding, unlocks access to new gear and assets, and there has always been pressure from the membership to level and stock provisions for our holdings as quickly as possible, so that the fleet can provide the earliest possible access to the newest gear.

At the onset, one of the biggest challenges that we faced was maintaining provision levels across our holdings, because the demand for fleet gear was insanely high, and we couldn't keep up with the demand. We were forced to select which items were in highest demand and focus the fleet's efforts on only certain projects that best fulfilled that demand. It's from this situation that the practice of selectively queuing projects was born.

Since that time, the holding situation has changed in many ways, but there's always pressure from our member base whenever a new holding is introduced, to unlock and provision the newest and coolest goodies for everyone's characters as quickly as possible. Back when I was sitting in Gareth's chair, we had some members who objected to the streams that we chose to level first when new holdings came out and the perceived slow speed at which we were leveling those holdings. We fielded several complaints from our members that they were having to go to other fleets to get the gear they wanted more quickly than we could provide it and at least one member removed himself from the fleet entirely over our lack of leveling progress in his eyes. So, to answer the question that has arisen here, the desire to speedily level new holdings has always been both a member and leadership driven one. Though I'm not in the big chair anymore, I think that this is why we're seeing the push to level the new holdings across our fleets.

As has been mentioned, the sad reality when it comes to offering more fleet credit earning potential within the Legion, is that the easy contributions to the projects are filled nearly instantaneously, while leadership and overly generous fleet members are typically left picking up the rest of the tab. This is largely a game design issue in my mind, as there isn't enough return on investment for duty officer and commodity contributions to the projects. Why would people want to spend more than they're receiving in return?

Further, in my opinion, there just isn't the player base within the Legion to support the regular queuing of all of the projects, which otherwise stall out, seeking eventual rescue from generous benefactors. The nice thing about the Armada system, is that my characters in Deep Space Stonewall and the Legion have been able to accumulate fleet credits elsewhere, by donating to other fleet projects within our armada, where there have been no shortage of opportunities. I can definitely appreciate where you're coming from though, Aty, in that we could potentially queue all the projects and look to our Armada for help there now.

Open dialogue about this has been an important part of shaping the fleet's approach to the holdings and we've historically tried to do that, typically, when a new holding is launched. Essentially, the leadership is trying to run the best service for the members of the fleet, so if there were a significant desire for change in holding project policy among the membership, then I think that there's definitely the potential for change. That's why conversations like this are good, so that we don't just fall into the trap of doing something just because it's always been done that way.

Always check the briefing room threads for discussions on the fleet holdings - leadership has often come to seek input here in the past. I offer the following links as some of the examples I could find - member opinion is always sought and is valuable to forging the right path forward for our community!

http://fleet.stonewallgaming.net/forums/briefing-room/67866-holding-fleet-spire

http://fleet.stonewallgaming.net/forums/briefing-room/74061-fleet-holding-project-etiquette

Gareth, the divide on the issue I perceive is not ~among~ the Admirals (no, no, you all seem quite unanimous). Rather, it's between many rank-and-file members on one side, who want to focus on contributing/dumping fleet marks & XP to earn Fleet Credits -- and while I personally do and have contributed more, I don't blame them because it's low-hanging fruit -- and on the other side: the Admiralty (including all current and former Admirals and Fleet Captains), who put more weight on leveling the (new) holdings ASAP, and who seem to get frustrated when members are quick to donate marks & xp, but nothing else. My response to that is: "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

Thanks for taking the time to explain all your rationale. I totally get it. I got it before the thread was started. It's not a new concept to me. Like I said, it was something my old fleet addressed as well, as far back as... was it in 2012 that the fleet starbase/holding system was introduced?

I agree that we all like to progress in-game and I haven't for one second excluded that from my arguments. However, surely we can agree, and obviously it's the case, that some members are OK with a slower pace in certain areas, whereas clearly the leadership is not.

I will it compare it to my game "main" character and "alts": I tend to level my main/s first and quickly and get the shiny new rep/event item/etc. Let's say this is how Stonewall Fleet holdings progress. Then, I tend to take a more casual, slower approach to some of my alts. Let's say this is how some Stonewall Legion Fleet holdings have been progressing. Would it be awesome if all of my 9 or whatever alts were level 60 with all reps, rep gear, epic weaps & consoles, and full captain specialization?? HECK YEAH. But what would that cost me if I wanted it, and I wanted it NOW?

I'm totally down for leveling Legion holdings, but I personally also want to see as many projects open as possible, and I know I'm not alone. This is coming from someone who has lately been mostly playing my Romulan character, who is a member of Legion, and who I plan to eventually make my main character. You know, I noticed that some Legion projects moved slowly, but I didn't think it was a huge problem. I've been wanting to buy the Elite Romulan Drone hangar for awhile, but couldn't because the Legion SB and Comm Array are too low. I thought about doing a temporary fleet transfer, but then I said to myself, no I don't want to burden anyone, plus I want to contribute, build a sense of pride from helping progress Legion, and have something to look forward to. The only time I've heard a complaint about slow Legion projects was when someone in leadership made a comment in game chat that it was tough to fill the Legion science/medical DOffs and ever since then, I've been trying to contribute more to that area. It would've been nice to have had a full dialogue and more of a chance to address the need. To be honest, I thought it was ~nice~ to have a couple of slow projects that I could return to and contribute items as I gathered them. One man's trash is another man's treasure. It gets a bit... tiresome... to login and only see projects at 100%, ones that you con't contribute to. Is the ideal all 100% all the time?? Perfection??? If so, I have some... acquaintances... I'd like to introduce you to... hang on just a sec... "Ensign, yes, patch me through to the Borg Queen. Yes, I did say the Borg Queen. No, I haven't gone mad... yet."

Anywhooooooo... I've made a few key points that have just been blowing in the wind like tumbleweed, unaddressed, but that's fine.

I kind of feel like my request was (not intentionally) co-opted and turned on its head into a discussion about how to level Legion Fleet holdings ASAP, and why that's important, when that really wasn't my point at all. I just feel like we're looking at the issue through different prisms.

Gravity -- no problemo whatsoever, thanks for joining the discussion and you were clear.

Pip pip.

Other than the XP and Fleet Marks, opening up other projects offers no real benefits for earning fleet credits due to the fact that once those two boxes are filled it leaves more boxes of the other resources that we struggle to fill.

This then dilutes contributions to where those resources would be more beneficial.

If people want more ways to contribute Fleet Marks and Expertise, then they need to help us by helping themselves in filling up the other categories available, to start off the countdown timer and launch the next project in the queue.

The items you wish to contribute in a slow manner will still be available to you in the already slotted projects. It again does not need every project slot to be open and available.


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